Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Let's end the anti-religious/religious & political talk NOW before anyone is further offended by these comments. We need to keep this place neutral...thanks.
[/QUOTE]

Should never had started in the first place.

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In an effort to keep the OLF peaceful as possible we have posted this small list if rules.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Wow, This has been a great thread. Very educational and helpful and fun!Thanks guys

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

I think you should charge what you are worth. There are ways to do that.

Dave, true, and I do understand what you are saying. Being the sole owner of my business and being the one who gathers and adds up all the expenses before handing them to the accounting firm, the understanding is clear. Those that do this as a hobby status will not, as you said, know their cost, and therefor not know what they need to charge.

Good advice there.

But that doesn't change the #1 rule of marketing(the thread topic...), and that is that the market determines the rpice, not the seller. Yes, the seller can afix a price tag, but the market is the one that will decide if that price reflects enough value to justify it. So, even when you know your costs, and figure you're worth $X, and then set your price accordingly, in the end, the market will still determine if you are worth $X or not.

For example, if I moved to California, my expenses may indeed double, all told, so, I would need to double my prices. Think the market will simply shrug and accept it? Don't think so.

Now, a service-industry person can indeed do that. If a plumber moves from Upper Rubber Boot Manitoba and moves to Boston, he can and must charge accordingly. Where he may have had a shop rate of $23/hour in UpperRubberBoot, he'll now be able to command $120+ in Boston. Same works in reverse: the Boston plumber who moves to Upper Rubber boot can't keep asking his Boston rates up there. It simply won't be accepted. Same for CPA's, doctors, etc..... A service is priced according to the locality.

But when we sell a -product-, it doesn't work that way. the end user doesn't care where we live, and how we live. The price should not reflect the manufacturer's lifestyle. When Detroit costs go up, the big 3 don't raise their auto prices; they move the plants to cheaper locations.

The price should be based on what the market will accept.

Another rule that hasn't been touched on here is that while we can always raise our prices if we so wish/need(within market acceptance, of course), we can never lower them. So, be careful when you do raise them, because if you price yourself above what the amrket will support for your work, you priced yourself out of business, because you can't step back.Mario38771.5549768519

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Dave,
I personally think that far too many builders fail to make money for the reasons you have stated...they don't really know their true costs.
I for one would invite you to start a thread and give us some clearer understanding of what goes into the costs beyond materials, where we can sit under you as an instructor, in a non-debate atmosphere for the thread. You have valuable information, and I for one would be consider it an honor to be taught more.

Not going to comment on McPherson's religious flavor so we can squash that here and keep things neutral. I'll PM you on it.

Laurent, drop it...final word.

[/QUOTE]


I agree with Don... I have so many thoughts on how the world is going wacky... and I am sure you do too.... But... it is best to leave the discussions of religion and politics off the board.   All that does is to paint a dividing line between us and cause all of us to throw stones at one another. Let's not fall victim to this... ok?

I think your idea for Dave to outline the costs is a GREAT idea... and to "plus" your idea. I think if Dave made up a template spread sheet to help calculate the cost of our guitars that would be awesome. I have done something similar to this, but I am sure coming from a real accountant it would be a much more accurate picture.

You may choose not to use the number the tool generates, but at least it will be a valuable data point in the decision makeing process.

Brock Poling38771.5750810185

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

What say you, Dave ol' buddy ol' pal?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I had a cousin from upper rubberboot, Manitoba.

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Thanks for the Levinson reference, Brock.

But it sure takes him a long time to make a point.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Sure you can step back - it's called a sale!

Not in this business.

Sorry, but if you think this way, you simply don't understand this business.

This is too small a market to backstep and get away with it. You cannot suddenly reduce your prices from $3000 to $2000. To do so will infuriate everyone who did pony up the 3k, it has killed the value of your work in the used market, and will ruin your name.

Sales are for reatil outlets, not manufacuturers, and once in the -business- of making instrument, you become a manufacturer.

I 100% agree with HEsh that if someone were even as much as thinking of striking out into an official business, for sure, seek out someone like Dave, or better yet, seek out Dave himself, since he's both a CPA AND luthier. I did just that before starting out, though I didn't have Dave there. The education was priceless. And were I to do it all over again, I'd take a business course, night course if i had to, before going further. I think most luthiers fail at the business, not at the instruments. I know for sure i worry more about my business skills than my luthin' skills.

Flipping through a ten year old issue of Acoustic guitar and comparing the adds to this month's issue is quite revealing. Very few are still around, and most of ther names from ten years ago aren't known at all, having quietly slipped away...

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Thanks for the Levinson reference, Brock.

But it sure takes him a long time to make a point.[/QUOTE]

true, but at least it is a pretty short book. :-)

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Don Williams] What say you, Dave ol' buddy ol' pal?
[/QUOTE]

I SAY SURE...I WOULD LIKE TO HELP...CHECK BACK WITH ME AFTER TAX SEASON...WHEN I CAN BREATH... I'D BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO HELP A FELLOW OLF'R.

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Hmmm....I worked for a CPA during tax season a couple years ago...it's an insane time of year for CPA's. Very long days and weeks. Most of them that I know take BIG vacations at the end of April !

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hi Mario

Thats a very good point you make about the after market, I was with a customer on Monday who also own a ? 6,000 Sobell, and he said to me sure it cost ? 6,000, but Sobells prices go up every year and the waiting list get longer. So the Guitar has a second hand value of at least ? 4,000, so it reality if you paid ? 3,000 for an instrument by an unknown maker you might be worst off, fortunately he was happy to pay ? 1,200 for an instrument by an unknown maker aka me